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1.670 |
Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
|  Posted: 2011-07-26 15:17
It was two Makkars, one trail, one Zlarr and the rest were defence buffs. I wasn't there to simulate anything or test anything, Defiance was just claiming that even he could beat a BD and BC with an SC solo, and I wanted to verify that claim.
Ablative + Standard armour mix, but it didn't matter because he didn't break one layer of armour anyway.
Unless you're implying twin layers of Reflective would enable the Strike Cruiser to defeat both the Battle Dreadnought and the Torpedo Cruiser.
Anyway, this isn't related to 1.670 "omg nerf" and "omg test", because it was just trying to see if Defiance could show it was possible. It isn't in current beta with the setups provided.
[ This Message was edited by: Bardiche on 2011-07-26 15:28 ]
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Xavier I. Agamemnon
Grand Admiral
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 12, 2010
Posts: 357
From: Babylon5
| Posted: 2011-07-26 15:44
we should put a nerf on QQing
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Xavier I. Agamemnon
CD/I.C.S Spartacus
HC/I.C.S Athena
CDD/I.C.S Achilles
Leader of the Exathra Alliance Fleet.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-07-26 16:10
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 15:09, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
You're totally right. We should just all use ablative because ICC doesn't field any assault ships ever. I mean using ablative vs a ship with all kinetic weapons is totally simulating what happens in the MV. 1 siphon/mandi/AD and both UGTO ships will drop their armor.
Also to all complaining about ranges:
Dictor. ICC didn't have trouble keeping range when pd was broken. Why now?
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The only energy heavy ship ICC has now is the AD, AC is mostly a torpedo boat now just like the TC. And Luth are always a risk no matter where you are but since the Mandible and Krill are both a mix of energy/kinetic/psi and hardly anyone uses the Siphon because of the current energy issues, it's pretty safe to say Ablative is the way to go right now overall.
Ablative weakness to energy is still low as well, we tested that yesterday and it took 4 alphas from a Parasite to burn throughl one ablative armor arc on a TC compared to 5 to burn through 1 standard armor arc.
As to closing range with an Interdictor present, I'll just say teamwork.
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Azure Prower
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
| Posted: 2011-07-26 16:54
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 15:09, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
Also to all complaining about ranges:
Dictor. ICC didn't have trouble keeping range when pd was broken. Why now?
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I see your dictor and I raise you a counter dictor that locks ICC ships in place so they cannot jump/keep range.
ICC have dictor. ICC wins!
UGTO have dictor. UGTO wins!
Both ICC and UGTO have dictor. UGTO wins!
See where this is going?
[ This Message was edited by: Azure Prower on 2011-07-26 16:58 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-07-26 19:35
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 16:54, Azure Prower wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 15:09, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
Also to all complaining about ranges:
Dictor. ICC didn't have trouble keeping range when pd was broken. Why now?
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I see your dictor and I raise you a counter dictor that locks ICC ships in place so they cannot jump/keep range.
ICC have dictor. ICC wins!
UGTO have dictor. UGTO wins!
Both ICC and UGTO have dictor. UGTO wins!
See where this is going?
[ This Message was edited by: Azure Prower on 2011-07-26 16:58 ]
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If both have a dictor and both factions are dictored ICC can max speed run away with no fear of jumps. The 2 ways UGTO can catch up are:
1. Use 2-3 jumps to jump around ICC dictor. Slow, inefficient, UGTO will be pelted to death long before they finally close range.
2. You dictored them AFTER they point jumped you. Here its just your error.
You may say "Rear arcs have less weapons!", but I raise you what I call the "chase" effect. The running ships can dodge more and the chasing ships can dodge less. This is because the runners are running in the same direction as the bullets headed for them, making their relative velocity to yours slower. The chasers have less dodging power as they are ramming into the bullets, making them faster compared to their velocity. This, plus the fact that ICC can shunt shields into the rear arcs and the fact that ICC have faster weps and manueverability allow for a respectable rear fighting arc.
On to the SC issue:
In beta it is balanced as an unguarded SC should have no chance of winning against a BD and TC who point jumps.
On the ablative issue:
I'd say a good combo would have the outer layer ablative and the inner standard/reflective, or simply both standard. Contrary to popular belief torpedoes are a mix of energy and kinetic, allowing them to penetrate ablative. It also doesn't help that although the AD and AC are both high damage dealers.
The reason why is that ablative doesn't regenerate. If that assault ship alphas you even only once or twice before retreating, that damage is staying till the end of the battle. You can easily wear down ablative ships like this. So even if 1 alpha doesn't seem much to you, if the fight is prolonged the standard armor might regen to allow 2 alphas, and in fleet battles this really adds up. Ablative lives up to UGTO's combat performance (EAD huge firepower low energy, armor in general) vs combat endurance (ICC more energy efficient AD, shields).
Your last argument might be that if anything reaches assault range it wouldn't live to regenerate. This can be wrong as standard regen has helped me survive tracking HCs and Cdessies spraying rails at me. There are many other examples where even the smallest regen shouldn't be just dismissed.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-07-26 23:31
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 19:35, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
On to the SC issue:
In beta it is balanced as an unguarded SC should have no chance of winning against a BD and TC who point jumps.
On the ablative issue:
I'd say a good combo would have the outer layer ablative and the inner standard/reflective, or simply both standard. Contrary to popular belief torpedoes are a mix of energy and kinetic, allowing them to penetrate ablative. It also doesn't help that although the AD and AC are both high damage dealers.
The reason why is that ablative doesn't regenerate. If that assault ship alphas you even only once or twice before retreating, that damage is staying till the end of the battle. You can easily wear down ablative ships like this. So even if 1 alpha doesn't seem much to you, if the fight is prolonged the standard armor might regen to allow 2 alphas, and in fleet battles this really adds up. Ablative lives up to UGTO's combat performance (EAD huge firepower low energy, armor in general) vs combat endurance (ICC more energy efficient AD, shields).
Your last argument might be that if anything reaches assault range it wouldn't live to regenerate. This can be wrong as standard regen has helped me survive tracking HCs and Cdessies spraying rails at me. There are many other examples where even the smallest regen shouldn't be just dismissed.
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Actually the original results were that a Dreadnought and Cruiser jumped a SC and it beat them both at close range, I just wanted to replicate it to see for myself. The SC in our test would have lost regardless even if it was standard armor on the BD/TC, neither of us used damage enh and the SC was dead within 30 seconds of being in close range, despite that we had Defiance start the combat at max range.
I'll say it again, ablative weakness to energy is still minimal. An arc of ablative only took one less full beam alpha to burn through than an arc of standard.
And just for the hell of it, we just did another round with SC (me) vs BD (Bardiche) and BC (Jim)
SC used 4x advanced weapon multis, 1x engine trail, 3x makkar
BD and BC were both stock, no enh, no armor or weapon changes.
SC dead in under 2 minutes, BC was barely touched, BD had 81% armor total left, and I actually kept some semblance of range and never let either of them get to point blank, though it was kept below 800 GU.
Even giving best possible case scenario to a SC it was still unable to kill either one of those ships, let alone both of them. Even if the BD/BC had 25% less armor and the SC had 10% more damage the results still would have been the same, so I'm still wondering how it happened. And this wasn't with them jumping me either, we started from around 800GU distance and it moved back and forth from 400-800 as I had to turn to be able to use more than 2 cannons at a time, and had to actually face them to use the fixed forward weapons which, again, make up around 80% of it's firepower.
Yes, ablative doesn't regenerate but the damage reduction to kinetic and low weakness to energy seems to make up for it, standard regenerates slowly and it may let you take a few extra hits in a prolonged battle, but chances are once armor is damaged to the point where you find yourself relying on it's slow regen you'd be jumping out, or be dead regardless if you're in an Interdictor field.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-07-27 00:59
I would like to point out that the TC we tested armor types on was heavily modded.
I was in a stock kluth cruiser (one with all beams and elf)
Jim was in a +73% HP TC
- 48% defense
- jacks 25% armor buff
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-07-27 02:48
Quote:
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On 2011-07-27 00:59, *XO*Defiance wrote:
I would like to point out that the TC we tested armor types on was heavily modded.
I was in a stock kluth cruiser (one with all beams and elf)
Jim was in a +73% HP TC
- 48% defense
- jacks 25% armor buff
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So how did your Parasite fair?
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-07-27 03:44
thats where we got the alpha test information vs ablative, standard, reflective armor.
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
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Azure Prower
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
| Posted: 2011-07-27 06:07
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 19:35, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 16:54, Azure Prower wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 15:09, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
Also to all complaining about ranges:
Dictor. ICC didn't have trouble keeping range when pd was broken. Why now?
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I see your dictor and I raise you a counter dictor that locks ICC ships in place so they cannot jump/keep range.
ICC have dictor. ICC wins!
UGTO have dictor. UGTO wins!
Both ICC and UGTO have dictor. UGTO wins!
See where this is going?
[ This Message was edited by: Azure Prower on 2011-07-26 16:58 ]
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If both have a dictor and both factions are dictored ICC can max speed run away with no fear of jumps. The 2 ways UGTO can catch up are:
1. Use 2-3 jumps to jump around ICC dictor. Slow, inefficient, UGTO will be pelted to death long before they finally close range.
2. You dictored them AFTER they point jumped you. Here its just your error.
You may say "Rear arcs have less weapons!", but I raise you what I call the "chase" effect. The running ships can dodge more and the chasing ships can dodge less. This is because the runners are running in the same direction as the bullets headed for them, making their relative velocity to yours slower. The chasers have less dodging power as they are ramming into the bullets, making them faster compared to their velocity. This, plus the fact that ICC can shunt shields into the rear arcs and the fact that ICC have faster weps and manueverability allow for a respectable rear fighting arc.
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You forgot option 3. Jump straight into the dictor field where the ICC is at full speed because we all know dictor fields don't always stop you at the edge of the field. Maybe allow a couple of ICC ships to jump away to thin their numbers before your dictor ship jumps in to hold the rest in place. Bam. Free kills.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-07-27 09:30
Unless your latency is real crappy I have never seen anyone jump more than 100 gu into the field. You will still engage at a range where rail > pcannons and the chase effect mentioned earlier also negates a lot of damage.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-07-27 09:46
lol why is a UGTO and a Kluth fighting about what ICC should do to fight?
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Slithis
Chief Marshal
Joined: October 21, 2002
Posts: 27
From: Da Dunt
| Posted: 2011-07-27 11:37
I tried refitting enhancements to counter the changes to the Kluth ships. Defensive ones did'nt help, and the condensors also did'nt help with the weapon energy loss. Are these even working?
And yes Kluth Armor should regen since its organic. We are bugs anyway. Hit and run is very touchy now since by the time you jump in, and your JD charges your dead. AI ships are a threat now since they are relentless lol...
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-07-27 12:22
HOTFIX: AHR and DC now repair armor, and costs ammo to do so. K'Luth Organic Armor regeneration rate lowered to compensate.
- HOTFIX: K'Luth stations have had their DC's replaced for a couple of weapons each.
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
339,144
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2011-07-27 13:09
Quote:
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On 2011-07-27 11:37, Slithis wrote:
I tried refitting enhancements to counter the changes to the Kluth ships. Defensive ones did'nt help, and the condensors also did'nt help with the weapon energy loss. Are these even working?
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Condensers actually decrease the time it takes for weapons to recharge between volleys; they don't decrease the amount of energy required, however.
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