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interdictors |
Sens [R33]
Admiral
Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
|  Posted: 2009-03-11 16:40
The point is, you cant slap a dictor on any old dread for balance issues; dictor cruisers are nothing more than a dico on a cruiser with nearly no armaments next to point defense, besides, it will promote the use of smaller ships to destroy the dico(which shouldnt exactly be impossible to kill)
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Bandit
Cadet
Joined: May 25, 2004
Posts: 165
From: Under a rock
| Posted: 2009-03-11 17:42
After 11 pages of ideas, I would like Richard's input on what he thinks of our ideas and those of his own....
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2009-03-11 18:58
Quote:
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On 2009-03-11 17:42, Bandit wrote:
After 11 pages of ideas, I would like Richard's input on what he thinks of our ideas and those of his own....
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that would be cool =)
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-03-11 19:20
Quote:
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On 2009-03-11 16:40, -Sensitivity- wrote:
The point is, you cant slap a dictor on any old dread for balance issues; dictor cruisers are nothing more than a dico on a cruiser with nearly no armaments next to point defense, besides, it will promote the use of smaller ships to destroy the dico(which shouldnt exactly be impossible to kill) |
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But at the same time dreads are slower than cruisers, much less maneuverable, and their jumpdrives take a lot longer to recharge. Abd with the dictor actually on, a dictor dread would be moving even slower; you could probably just fly out of the range. The extra weapons the dread has are balanced by the dictor's power drain so long as it's not simple cannons it's equipped with.
It would bring the focus of dictor ships toward the defensive, which is what I and I believe Shigernafy want. Doesn't mean it can't be used offensively, just that it's not going to work as well in that role. It's too slow and the jumpdrive takes too long to recharge.
Plus, remember that losing a dread costs a lot more than losing a cruiser, especially now with the way "resources lost" is scaled. With the upcoming grouping system dictor cruisers would have almost nothing to lose and everything to gain. So what if you die? It's just a cruiser, and you're grouped so you're making a lot of prestige (but hopefully not earning badges! Do NOT share individual stats please!!).
Oh, and a dread is only as armed as the devs make it  If they decided to make the dictor ship a dread what rule says it has to be armed to the teeth to it's maximum capacity? Who's to say, if they decided to make it a dictor dread, that they can't adjust the interdictor device to require even MORE room and MORE power usage in order to fit on a dread without making the dread too powerful?
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Rae
Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 23, 2002
Posts: 284
From: 10 minutes away in a fast boat
| Posted: 2009-03-11 21:16
Why not make the interdictor device like the pulse wave? Make it charge slightly quicker than a jd, with a 1000 gu range so that any ship in range can be disabled, but have a chance to slip away without jumping. I also vote this as a dread only device... ships can jump in but once hit with the dictor wave can't jump away for 1 minute, or thus forcing them to either fight or flee. Just my .02
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2009-03-11 21:28
Uh, that's pretty much the same thing as my suggestion of a device that re-set the jumpdrive cooldown of all ships in range.
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Rae
Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 23, 2002
Posts: 284
From: 10 minutes away in a fast boat
| Posted: 2009-03-11 22:58
oops... musta skipped a page when reading.. good idea Jim, i agree wholeheartedly
my bad?
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2009-03-12 03:27
As Sparkle said, I'm more interested in the dictor as a defensive device; I think its current (if working) form is fine in that role but the offensive capacity (ie, you can't run) is what makes it deter combat when fielded. I think that even without the ability to point jump your enemies, people would still fight. Not being able to escape if things go south (and thus having a guarantee of losing points) makes people much less likely to fight. A pulse weapon, by its very nature entirely offensive, means that combat deterrent is present.
Mr Sparkle: ... So what if you die? It's just a cruiser, and you're grouped so you're making a lot of prestige ...
That's true, in the sense that a cruiser would net less of a loss than a dread. But resources lost are computed as a combination of the hull's inherent cost plus the cost of the gadgets on the ship. In other words, we could theoretically make the dictor device itself worth 10,000 prestige points -- that's not necessarily a limiting factor.
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2009-03-12 06:43
Quote:
| As Sparkle said, I'm more interested in the dictor as a defensive device; I think its current (if working) form is fine in that role but the offensive capacity (ie, you can't run) is what makes it deter combat when fielded. I think that even without the ability to point jump your enemies, people would still fight. Not being able to escape if things go south (and thus having a guarantee of losing points) makes people much less likely to fight. A pulse weapon, by its very nature entirely offensive, means that combat deterrent is present.
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The Bold: This is why theres multiple ranks in a navy. By that statement id rate you as a Rear Admiral, where as an offensive minded person like myself or Jim would be a Vice Admiral.
Also what ever happend to the saying "Sometimes a good Defence is a good offense!" HMMMM????
The Italics: Honestly, grow some. if you lose a station, u lose like... 200 pres. that station when repped up fully, gives you MORE than what u lost. Am i the only one that sees Abso-freaking-lutly ZERO conciquences for pvp in darkspace? am i? srly.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2009-03-12 06:58
Dictors deter solo-gun fights when used offensively, and I think that's what puts people off them.
If you bring a fleet to a fight, then you have your friends/faction to help you in destroying the dictor.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2009-03-12 06:58 ]
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2009-03-12 07:00
Its not that I think it should be a purely defense device. I just find that argument, that use, more important to restore than the offensive side of the device. I agree with your and Jim's early (like p2 and 3) comments on why the dictor is important, especially the ability to control instant fleet point jumps of doom. They're fun - I don't think they should be impossible. I just think its more important to be able to control that sort of thing than running away.
In terms of offense, I think it needs to have more explicit trade-offs, because of its documented deterrent effect on combat. In a single no-jump-area device (as current/past), this means high energy cost and a cruiser for weaker hull values. If it were to be split, then there would be other possible ways to balance it.
I'm not opposed to people dying, and you're right that its not THAT hard to gain pres this version, especially once you get up to VA or so. That said, I prefer more combat to less, so having a device which makes people on balance less likely to engage is a bad thing in my mind. Having a device which makes people hesitate because they have to plan a bit more - how do we engage effectively, take out the ship that's hampering our unfettered access to the field of battle, etc - is a Good Thing. In my opinion, its having a dictor with a weakness and counter that makes it a net plus for the game. The current version of the dictor has not, in my opinion, properly struck that balance. It may require more tactics, but often those tactics are "sit and wait for it to leave."
Is that any clearer? I'm not saying the dictor should be a scout limited to 5 gu/s.. as then nobody would fly it. But it needs a stronger tradeoff - whether that's survivability, cost to the other team (universal effect), or whatever. It should add something to the game without throwing the balance too far in favor of any one side.
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2009-03-12 07:57
Well from the last paragraph of your most recent post shig, Clear tradeoffs for the power of a dictor, i yet again point to Jims modual on a destroyer.
a destroyer that has to venture into 100gu range of his target, and then try to make it back out? hell probly get one run before he has to leave the battle to rep, 2 runs if he suicides to lock down the hostile dread.
thats one hell of a tradeoff i think.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-03-12 14:11
Quote:
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Mr Sparkle: ... So what if you die? It's just a cruiser, and you're grouped so you're making a lot of prestige ...
That's true, in the sense that a cruiser would net less of a loss than a dread. But resources lost are computed as a combination of the hull's inherent cost plus the cost of the gadgets on the ship. In other words, we could theoretically make the dictor device itself worth 10,000 prestige points -- that's not necessarily a limiting factor.
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Yeah that's true too. If that were the case then keeping it on a cruiser with the upcoming grouping would be fine.
And Meko, you lose a lot more than 200 prestige with a station, and you don't gain anything by repairing yourself. You lose something like 400 prestige with a station (that's a rough estimate; I would have to crash a station on purpose without doing combat or repairing to know the exact cost). The problem is grouping. It's going to allow people who currently do the more mundane tasks like scouting and dictoring to make almost the same prestige as those doing combat and supplying.
It's a good thing, however resources lost has been modified so that smaller ships lose less prestige now, considerably less. So a dictor cruiser loses less prestige than in previous patches. Pair that with it's ability to group in the future and earn lots of prestige and you suddenly have a ship with the most powerful effect in the game that has no consequence to flying it. If they did what Shig mentioned and increased the value of the dictor device it would fix that problem. There has to be a consequence to flying a ship with the most powerful and useful effect in the game, otherwise it would be too easy and too convenient to use one, and we'd see a bunch of them all the time.
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2009-03-12 18:11
well thats wonderfull if u see a bunch of them at the time, good thing they dont have any weapons hahaha
and, mr sparkle, ive lost 6 stations in the last 2 days, and im still gaining prestige. so now, you dont lose 'alot' more than 200 pres. cause i dont play for long stretches at a time. and secondly i know your dont get pres for repping yourself, but if your in a station and you die alone, then thats your prob. die with your fleet, rep with your fleet, no one loses 
anyways, to be on topic, i still support dictorcruisers being the roadblock, and the dessydictors being the spike strip ^.^
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2009-03-12 18:15
Hey... what if it's the Dessie-mounted device that re-sets jumpdrive cooldowns?
Then they only have to get in close long enough to use the device on their target and get out. If the pilot is good, a Dread wouldn't be able to kill it in that timeframe...
...but another Dessie could pursue and engage, and since the dictor-Dessie wouldn't have much in the way of armament...
Yay for giving small ships a role! 
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