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[Beta] Dreadnaught layouts |
SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
|  Posted: 2011-05-13 20:54
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On 2011-05-13 15:05, Defiance*XO* wrote:
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On 2011-05-13 05:58, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
Also, if shields become stronger than armor, then I really would like to see ICC actually have lesser firepower. Right now rails are same as pcannon @400 gu, uses same beams, and torps/cores are more acurate at the cost of some damage. ATM ICC is defensive because of shield rotation even though it has less total hp than armor. If they had the same hp as armor then there would be little downside to ICC, fair punch (strong punch at long range) with superior defense.
**Since when did armor become supirior to sheilds? Since when whas this ok? ICC has the lowest firepower of all three factions. The burst damage of our AD is 100,000 points off of siphon or EAD and thats not enuff? Sheild rotation is a joke in 1.67... "with superior defense".... Is that not the point of ICC?...**
Shields will suffer in rotation rate, so an appropriate fix would be simply increasing how much shield power is transfered per click.
**no... to only treat the symptoms of the problem and not the problem itself will lend icc dreads to being knocked down to 0% shields in one alpha. Resistances,HP, and rotation rate all need a slight buff. 15-20% with rotation getting a 100% increase in transfer rate.**
Even if icc had infinate sheild points, that is every time we hit a button to rotate it pulled points out of thin air to do so, Sheilds this version, on dreads and probably stations, would still be no more than a resistance % thrown on top of our light armor. Not a true defence.
I believe more tests are in order to truely tell where shields stand, but so far im underwhelmed.
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance*XO* on 2011-05-13 15:16 ]
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The reason Shields had less hp than armor was that you could maintain one arc for much longer, giving it an advantage prepatch to the AD and Missile boats. This also helped deal with small ships *trying* to pick away at one arc. In a way it forced you to go through all of the shields where a UGTO can die with some armor plates left, usually rear. Armor did not get superior to shields, its just that the thing that made them so good, shield rotation, is now too slow.
Shield resistances/hp hasn't been changed, the same with armor. The only change is increased firepower, causing both shields and armor to be less effective. It caused shields to be less effective mainly because you can't transfer fast enough now.
ICC composite armor is misleading, it is an exact copy of UGTO standard armor, it's just you only have 1 layer unlike UGTO. So ICC doesn't have "light" armor, you just have less armor. (light armor would be kluth, where they are literally lighter in terms of hp per layer)
If shields get buffs, appropriate buffs to all faction armors would be required, as there was no change to either defence system.
TL;DR: Make shield rotation faster to accustom to the new firepower.
PS: The AD does have much less fore alpha damage, but its ICs can easily hit smaller ships, especially with new fire rate changes. This is a luxury that not many UGTO/Kluth Dreads have. More versatile, less specialized.
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MarineKingPrime
Marshal
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 04, 2010
Posts: 239
From: CSS CheezyBagels
| Posted: 2011-05-13 21:23
No, shields run out extremely quickly as well. It needs a buff to exist for longer than 5 seconds before going down to 0% total shields
[ This Message was edited by: darksmaster923 (3IC) on 2011-05-13 21:24 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-05-13 21:25
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On 2011-05-13 21:23, darksmaster923 (3IC) wrote:
No, shields run out extremely quickly as well. It needs a buff to exist for longer than 5 seconds before going down to 0% total shields
[ This Message was edited by: darksmaster923 (3IC) on 2011-05-13 21:24 ]
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Defence in general needs to be buffed for all the new damages. Remember, since no hp values were changed armor should go down near equally as fast.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-05-13 21:41
Why buff weapon damage then if you're just gonna buff defense to compensate?
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-13 21:42
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On 2011-05-13 20:27, General Zod wrote:
EAD has 2 aux gens now so it's a little better, but the Krill's energy took a serious hit, so much so that it can't maintain fire even when stationary.
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Reconfigured again?
OK. I'll test it out.
Edit:
OK, I've tested it out.
The EAD is better now with 2 aux gens.
Also, I'll concede a bit to Jack that the ELF beams might not need a big buff. However, I'll ask you to reconsider shortening the recharge cycle of the ELF. Can we halve it? Or tweak up the energy drain on the target slightly... somewhere 20% more?
The ELFs (all 6 of 'em) seem to randomly suck energy from the EAD I flew... anywhere from 6 energy to 16 energy loss.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-05-13 22:48 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-05-13 22:52
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On 2011-05-13 21:41, General Zod wrote:
Why buff weapon damage then if you're just gonna buff defense to compensate?
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Well currently we have people hulling each other in about 1-3 alphas depending on ships. Seems a bit harsh. I don't mean buff defence to the point of old offence:defence ratio, but a slight buff would help.
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MarineKingPrime
Marshal
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 04, 2010
Posts: 239
From: CSS CheezyBagels
| Posted: 2011-05-13 23:21
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On 2011-05-13 22:52, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
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On 2011-05-13 21:41, General Zod wrote:
Why buff weapon damage then if you're just gonna buff defense to compensate?
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Well currently we have people hulling each other in about 1-3 alphas depending on ships. Seems a bit harsh. I don't mean buff defence to the point of old offence:defence ratio, but a slight buff would help.
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why don't you just nerf the ships that insta hull other ships in 1 alpha?
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-05-14 00:51
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On 2011-05-13 23:21, darksmaster923 (3IC) wrote:
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On 2011-05-13 22:52, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
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On 2011-05-13 21:41, General Zod wrote:
Why buff weapon damage then if you're just gonna buff defense to compensate?
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Well currently we have people hulling each other in about 1-3 alphas depending on ships. Seems a bit harsh. I don't mean buff defence to the point of old offence:defence ratio, but a slight buff would help.
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why don't you just nerf the ships that insta hull other ships in 1 alpha?
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You mean basically all assault dreads vs kluth?
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-05-14 01:53
Some Perspective (Dreads)
*UGTO have reflective armor that severally limits damage done by k’luth as they are energy weapon based.
*UGTO have ablative armor that severely limits damage done by ICC as they are kinetic weapon based.
*K’luth have elf beams that are especially good Vs ICC as they are more energy reliant.
*ICC has shield rotation… totally negated by current ship burst damage…
*ICC has a 150-200gu range advantage that they only get to use for the opening moments of a fight. For that they have the weakest weapons in the game.
*Best offence in the game goes to UGTO for combinations of high damage weapons coupled with specialized defensive capabilities. UGTO also has the most defensive HP.
*Best maneuverability in the game goes to ICC. A side affect of having less defensive HP.
*Best core weapon in the game goes to UGTO for range, speed, splash damage, and consistently high damage per projectile.
*Best special ability goes to K’luth. Aside from allowing superior battlefield control, it also destroys all missiles locked onto the vessel.
*UGTO Who is your greatest advisory?
*K’luth Who is your greatest advisory?
In light of all this, I have not asked for special weapons to deal with k’luth and UGTO respectively. I have not asked for a “last stand” maneuver that increases fire rate by 300% and reduces range by 75% for dealing with close encounters.
I only want ICC to take up its mantle as the defensive faction of DS. Nearly two years of ICC being a turkey shoot for the other two factions is enough…
At current, I would not dare order a member of my fleet into the coffin row of dreads we have now. In 1.66 we cannot use stations to any affect due to shields lacking the ability to stand up to other stations, let alone dreads.
Now our dreads are in the same boat. Can’t stand up to other dreads, let alone cruisers.
Don’t get me wrong. I do love the new layouts. I don’t have a problem with one of them. I just feel that as a result of all the firepower present, shields are completely compromised.. (on dreads and stations only. Cruisers and below ROCK!!)
Thats all i have to say about it.. Whatever happens from here happens. Ill adapt and move on. If that means my combat consists of using my Cdread like a giant transport and just dropping troups on everyone to win. So be it. I shall be deadly even with no guns at all.
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-05-14 02:43
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On 2011-05-14 01:53, Defiance*XO* wrote:
Some Perspective (Dreads)
*UGTO have reflective armor that severally limits damage done by k’luth as they are energy weapon based.
*UGTO have ablative armor that severely limits damage done by ICC as they are kinetic weapon based.
*K’luth have elf beams that are especially good Vs ICC as they are more energy reliant.
*ICC has shield rotation… totally negated by current ship burst damage…
*ICC has a 150-200gu range advantage that they only get to use for the opening moments of a fight. For that they have the weakest weapons in the game.
*Best offence in the game goes to UGTO for combinations of high damage weapons coupled with specialized defensive capabilities. UGTO also has the most defensive HP.
*Best maneuverability in the game goes to ICC. A side affect of having less defensive HP.
*Best core weapon in the game goes to UGTO for range, speed, splash damage, and consistently high damage per projectile.
*Best special ability goes to K’luth. Aside from allowing superior battlefield control, it also destroys all missiles locked onto the vessel.
*UGTO Who is your greatest advisory?
*K’luth Who is your greatest advisory?
In light of all this, I have not asked for special weapons to deal with k’luth and UGTO respectively. I have not asked for a “last stand” maneuver that increases fire rate by 300% and reduces range by 75% for dealing with close encounters.
I only want ICC to take up its mantle as the defensive faction of DS. Nearly two years of ICC being a turkey shoot for the other two factions is enough…
At current, I would not dare order a member of my fleet into the coffin row of dreads we have now. In 1.66 we cannot use stations to any affect due to shields lacking the ability to stand up to other stations, let alone dreads.
Now our dreads are in the same boat. Can’t stand up to other dreads, let alone cruisers.
Don’t get me wrong. I do love the new layouts. I don’t have a problem with one of them. I just feel that as a result of all the firepower present, shields are completely compromised.. (on dreads and stations only. Cruisers and below ROCK!!)
Thats all i have to say about it.. Whatever happens from here happens. Ill adapt and move on. If that means my combat consists of using my Cdread like a giant transport and just dropping troups on everyone to win. So be it. I shall be deadly even with no guns at all.
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UGTO reflective armor bites the dust when smacked with torps and SIs are also partially PSI damage, bypassing the armor resistance. PSI cannons aren't energy, so they cut through reflective too. Suffers from an ICC ambush. (If kluth would try the new, improved mandi and ganglia reflective will die) (Mandi and Ganglia have considerable cannons)
ICC have HCLs like UGTO. Ablative also suffers from a kluth ambush. No repair rate allows guerilla warfare. Torps are also part energy.
ELF affects everyone, ICC usually has an extra aux-gen to make up for the shield energy consumption.
Shield rotation does need to be faster to catch up with burst damage.
ICC cannons only have a 150-200 range advantage, but they deal far superior damage vs pcannon until around 400 gu. Also, MD anyone?
UGTO have best raw "jump in and bash the enemy" damage. However they are the most affected by fighters and missiles. Play to your strengths, not your enemy's. They have the best raw defence hp, this was offset by shield rotation but that is a bit too slow atm. Speeding up shield rotation will help.
Cores are different and serve slightly different purposes. SIs gamble and can score massive mid range damage. UGTO cores are the basis of what they use to fight at around 900-1000 gu. ICC cores, however, are the fastest ingame and smack any UGTO small ship in the face, especially with new double fire rates at the cost of having the least damage potential. They all serve slightly different purposes.
ICC was not turkey shoot for 2 years. Where were you in the age of 1.5 missile spam? You know, where missiles had no counter? (pd sucked and shot lasers one at a time, pickett dessie didn't work. Small ships were obliterated by 1-2 well placed ADs near the MDs) ICC was gaining ground, attracting all of the faction hoppers, smashing both UGTO and Kluth, had good leadership, and were still complaining about UGTO and Kluth. Ironically the new pd system + most of the leaders quiting for some reason led to the downfall of ICC.
If ICC got more players and shield rotation was sped up it would be about equal to other factions. The new CD is basically the same as the BD, the AD has less fore damage but has heavier broadsides. Same with the new HC, it would do its current anti-dread harrass even better.
Kenny was also sharing nice war stories where he and his friends used quite original tactics to decimate a much larger UGTO force.
The Fridge also shared a few tricks with the CD.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-05-14 03:33
you make me feel like a broke record....
NO! just increasing the rotation rate without boosting resistance, HP, or some other stat will only lead to loosing all sheilds in a single alpha and still suffering armor damage.
the root of all this may be that beams were buffed too much. Other weapons do LOL damage compaired to beams. Expecialy Elf VS sheilds.
Yes, Im sure of it.
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance*XO* on 2011-05-14 04:13 ]
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-05-14 04:07
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On 2011-05-14 03:33, Defiance*XO* wrote:
you make me feel like a broke record....
NO! just increasing the rotation rate without boosting resistance, HP, or some other stat will only lead to loosing all sheilds in a single alpha and still suffering armor damage.
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Well both UGTO and Kluth are getting hulled easily as well, and no changes were made to how any defence system works. This means all factions got easier to hull by around the same magnitude, as the weapons buff was universal.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-05-14 04:55
Im not too big to admit when im wrong. Further tests with sheilds shows that beams and beams alone are their folly.
Beams still totaly negate sheilds, blasting strait through to armor, or hull under.
Perhaps a minor tone down of beams will help fix all factions defencive problems.
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
339,144
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-14 05:36
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On 2011-05-14 04:55, Defiance*XO* wrote:
Im not too big to admit when im wrong. Further tests with sheilds shows that beams and beams alone are their folly.
Beams still totaly negate sheilds, blasting strait through to armor, or hull under.
Perhaps a minor tone down of beams will help fix all factions defencive problems.
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But that was the reason why they upped beams. They were too weakass in the past.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-05-14 09:11 ]
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2011-05-14 10:15
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On 2011-05-14 05:36, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
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On 2011-05-14 04:55, Defiance*XO* wrote:
Im not too big to admit when im wrong. Further tests with sheilds shows that beams and beams alone are their folly.
Beams still totaly negate sheilds, blasting strait through to armor, or hull under.
Perhaps a minor tone down of beams will help fix all factions defencive problems.
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But that was the reason why they upped beams. They were too weakass in the past.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-05-14 09:11 ]
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but in doing so Shields became next to nothing in terms of defence. In beta Da bes loser fired a beam slpha on me with a Siphon while I was rotating, completly obliterated 3 arcs of shields and 50% of armor (left, fore, and right of an AD)
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