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[Beta] Dreadnaught layouts |
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
|  Posted: 2011-05-11 16:35
Ok that's understood.
The problem with ELF is we don't know if they're worth it. Do they drain enough energy to make the target say "oh crap I'm losing energy"? I don't think they do. And a Siphon is designed to get close, unleash hell, then get the heck out of there, so it doesn't need the energy boost from ELF unless it's camping a depot planet. It's just not gonna be uncloaked firing on it's target for that long.
If it's a question of keeping it's damage at a respectable level, then underequip it I say. There's no rule that says all it's points have to be used (or is there?). Or do something weird and give it extra front armor; it doesn't have to be spent on weapons.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2011-05-11 16:38
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On 2011-05-11 15:48, Jim Starluck wrote:
So it seems you guys want more damage no matter what, and are willing to exchange ELF beams for them. I'm hesitant about adding more Assault Disruptors, though--it's already got eight of the darn things; two more and it'll have as many as a battle station, all of them focused on a single arc.
I went ahead and checked the alpha strike damage, by the way. With a single spacebar the Siphon can inflict nearly 318,000 damage on average, assuming all of its weapons hit. The Mandible can manage just over 252,000, while the EAD can get up to 291,000--but that's assuming it's at about mid-range. Due to the falloff from chemical lasers it can do a LOT more damage the closer it gets. If you could get to 0 range for every beam the EAD could hit for more than 430,000. That's enough to one-shot anything smaller than a Cruiser.
Nearly two-thirds of the Siphon's damage comes from it's Assault Disruptors, so adding more of them would increase it dramatically, which I'm not sure I want to do. I've also been keeping to a policy of having as few regular beams on the heavy combat Dreads as I can manage, to keep their point-defense capability under control--which rules out regular Disruptors. Replacing two of the ELFs with 4 torps would kick its alpha-strike up to 347,000, but that gives it as many torps as the Mandible, which I'm also iffy on.
So I've got a bit of a dilemma here.
[ This Message was edited by: Jim Starluck on 2011-05-11 15:54 ]
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indeed there is a dilemma.
With those data jim gave us , i can see in "worst fall-off" case EAD still can inflict 91% damage of a siphon . In best optimal range Ead can make alpha of 135%+ of a siphon. After adding some torps to siphon Ead still can out dps siphon by 21%. Thats where we are mistaking. Ead fitted with abletives will improve siphon's hitpoint by 60%. We could fix the numbers in some way like :
Ead at fall-off : siphon's alpha 20% more than ead.
Ead at optimal beam range : siphon's alpha 10% more than EAd.
TBH, this post of mine based on faction descriptions. Kluth would hurt more but would have weak defense. If you are saying faction description will be changed before release, well , carry on with new layouts as you wish.Otherwise this is how it should be.
Note: I was a bit suprised with siphon fitted all beams. Also i was a bit upset .But figured out assault distruptors was broken and i couldnt have chance to try it with fix. So if you can manage fit the siphon with beams using above numbers it is welcome to game.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-05-11 16:42
There's no hard rule saying every point must be spent, but leaving any of them unspent will make that ship, overall, weaker than its peers. If the Siphon only uses 195 points out of its maximum of 200, but the AD and EAD both use all 200, then in some respect they're superior.
I suppose an extra plate of Fore armor might help.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-05-11 16:53
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 16:38, Pakhos[+R] wrote:
indeed there is a dilemma.
With those data jim gave us , i can see in "worst fall-off" case EAD still can inflict 91% damage of a siphon . In best optimal range Ead can make alpha of 135%+ of a siphon. After adding some torps to siphon Ead still can out dps siphon by 21%. Thats where we are mistaking. Ead fitted with abletives will improve siphon's hitpoint by 60%. We could fix the numbers in some way like :
Ead at fall-off : siphon's alpha 20% more than ead.
Ead at optimal beam range : siphon's alpha 10% more than EAd. |
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Not quite. Those figures were for Lasers at about half of their range, give or take a bit. At or near maximum range they do very little, while Disruptors still do their full damage. And Disruptors have a higher range than Lasers.
At point-blank range, a Heavy Laser does 100% damage.
At 50% of its range, it only does 61% damage.
At or near max range its damage is highly variable, but on average will only be about 22%.
So a K'luth ship engaging a human ship with lots of beams (like the EAD) should be firing from as close to maximum Disruptor range as it can manage. Since cloak can let K'luth dictate when and where they engage, this should be easier to manage.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-05-11 17:06
It also seems it's OK for the EAD to have a very high potential alpha strike, but not the Siphon? In my opinion that should be backwards. The Siphon should have that massive alpha strike because it has very little armor compared to a human ship. Close-range Kluth ships rely on massive alpha damage because they're the ones taking massive damage.
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2011-05-11 17:11
since i bet no one else is gonna ask. What about the DPS for the AD?
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Silent Threat { Vier }
Marshal
Anarchy's End
Joined: August 03, 2004
Posts: 278
From: Waiting...watching...
| Posted: 2011-05-11 17:19
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On 2011-05-11 17:06, General Zod wrote:
It also seems it's OK for the EAD to have a very high potential alpha strike, but not the Siphon? In my opinion that should be backwards. The Siphon should have that massive alpha strike because it has very little armor compared to a human ship. Close-range Kluth ships rely on massive alpha damage because they're the ones taking massive damage.
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This is what I was thinking. Shouldn't the Siphon being K'luth, have the highest alpha strike of any dread in the game?
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On 2011-05-11 11:46, chlorophyll wrote:
I performed a test between UGTO command dread and Krill in beta. I was in CD with 8 AW condenser, and [PB]Tommas in Krill. So far, it proved that Krill was OP, I was killed when Krill at 50% hull. But the result is not trustworthy. I have a slow computer, I couldn't tell whether my mines hit [PB]Tommas because it seemed like I was in a bad frame rate drop.
I hear that Krill needs an idea. Here is mine:
- 5 mines.
- 1 SI.
- 4 assualt fighters.
- Some Heavy Plasma Cannon.
- 1 ECM.
- 1 aux.
- No AD.
- 6 ruptors.
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An UGTO Command Dread and Krill are not even in the same class are they?
I would hope that a Krill is powerful enough to take out a Command class dread easily. Same with an EAD vrs a Brood, the EAD should win easy enough. Unless the devs are changing their thinking on what Command class dreads should be able to do.
And about the Siphon, I'd have to say that I found the idea of it being almost all beams interesting tho I'm normally a Krill flyer myself.
[ This Message was edited by: Silent Threat { Vier } on 2011-05-11 17:22 ]
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-05-11 17:36
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 17:06, General Zod wrote:
It also seems it's OK for the EAD to have a very high potential alpha strike, but not the Siphon? In my opinion that should be backwards. The Siphon should have that massive alpha strike because it has very little armor compared to a human ship. Close-range Kluth ships rely on massive alpha damage because they're the ones taking massive damage.
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They both have very high alpha strike potential. By comparison, the ICC Combat Dreadnought can manage a bit over 106,000 total, and just 69,000 without its beams. The UGTO Battle Dread can get about 126,000, but again it drops to just 72,000 if you only look at Particle Cannons and QSTs.
Make no mistake, the EAD and the Siphon both have two of the most powerful alpha-strikes in the game now. It's just that in one situation the EAD's is higher, while in another the Siphon's is higher.
And remember, this isn't DPS. This is alpha strike damage; what you'll inflict if you press the spacebar exactly one time. It is not the only measure of a ship's firepower.
Also, we do have layouts planned for the Brood and Krill; they just haven't made it into the game yet.
[ This Message was edited by: Jim Starluck on 2011-05-11 17:37 ]
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2011-05-11 17:38
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 17:11, GA Soulless wrote:
since i bet no one else is gonna ask. What about the DPS for the AD?
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Lower than both faction super dreads. It has more hitpoint than siphon and same hitpoint as EAD with abletives when rotating shield to one point.
I might be wrong.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2011-05-11 17:46
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 17:36, Jim Starluck wrote:
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Make no mistake, the EAD and the Siphon both have two of the most powerful alpha-strikes in the game now. It's just that in one situation the EAD's is higher, while in another the Siphon's is higher.
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This is not convencing at all. We need to test this in combat. 1 vs 1 and 3 or more vs 3 or more..
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-05-11 17:58
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 17:38, Pakhos[+R] wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 17:11, GA Soulless wrote:
since i bet no one else is gonna ask. What about the DPS for the AD?
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Lower than both faction super dreads. It has more hitpoint than siphon and same hitpoint as EAD with abletives when rotating shield to one point.
I might be wrong.
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See, this post is just confusing. He asked for DPS on the AD when we're comparing alpha-strike damage, but instead you estimated hitpoints. 
The Assault Dread's mid-range alpha strike weighs in at 186,000, but climbs towards 292,000 at close range. So yeah, EAD and Siphon still have better alpha-strikes. The AD compensates by having better arcs; it has a much heavier broadside than either EAD or Siphon.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2011-05-11 18:02
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 17:58, Jim Starluck wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 17:38, Pakhos[+R] wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 17:11, GA Soulless wrote:
since i bet no one else is gonna ask. What about the DPS for the AD?
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Lower than both faction super dreads. It has more hitpoint than siphon and same hitpoint as EAD with abletives when rotating shield to one point.
I might be wrong.
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See, this post is just confusing. He asked for DPS on the AD when we're comparing alpha-strike damage, but instead you estimated hitpoints.
The Assault Dread's mid-range alpha strike weighs in at 186,000, but climbs towards 292,000 at close range. So yeah, EAD and Siphon still have better alpha-strikes. The AD compensates by having better arcs; it has a much heavier broadside than either EAD or Siphon.
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No, not confused, maybe a bit. I was answering to his question with " Lower than both faction super dreads " then thinking to justify it with hitpoints. Well i didnt explain enough
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-05-11 18:09
The AD is a "superdread" too, y'know.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-05-11 18:54
Too much trouble to ask for 5 active sheild generators and 4 armor on the AD?
The exta armor plate sure seems to have the AD turning like a turtle.
Also ICC is the defencive faction because of their sheilds.. and sheilds resistance to energy weapons. I feel like the AD took a major hit in the defencive department with this one.
Also current AD seems to me to do more damage than the new one.. So less offence and defence with the new.
Anyone elses ideas on this?
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance*XO* on 2011-05-11 18:57 ]
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Azure Prower
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
| Posted: 2011-05-11 18:56
Failing to see the downside of the EAD. Seems like it has the best armor and the best potential damage in the game now.
It may be a flaw of how chemical beams are designed, but with K'luth designed to be close ranged ships and yet the closer they get to Human ships, the more damage they take on their already weak armor (I noticed you removed the extra chit armor on Siphons and left them with one AHR slot now in the new version).
Just seems a little off.
As for Alpha Strike vs. DPS.
Dread vs. Dread. If K'luth open up against a human ship with an alpha from behind. You probably only get one extra alpha before the human ship comes to a complete stop, then spins around and starts closing the gap to give them the advantage. Then you have to deal with their full front arc of armor/shield.
So really DPS only really matters on human ships, as K'luth usually have to rely on 1-3 alpha strikes before they have to break off by cloaking or more commonly by jumping out now.
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