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[Beta] Dreadnaught layouts |
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
|  Posted: 2011-05-11 22:23
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On 2011-05-11 22:08, Sens [R33] wrote:
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On 2011-05-11 21:32, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
I tested the Siph, Mandi and Krill again yesterday.
The Siph has enough beams as it currently stands. What it needs are projectile weaps, and that means torps. If an EAD fits on reflective armor, it's not going to help the Siph at all. And knowing Uggies, they will put Def Upgrades on the EAD + Reflectives, which will basically swing the advantage over to the EAD.
So there goes the Superdread vs Superdread contest.
OK, but that aside. As some has suggested, the Siphon needs a definitive advantage in alpha-strike regardless of range. For a "super dread" it already has less armor than a 'regular' human dread, so its role lies in decloaking close off the enemy and giving it critical damage before having to break off (either due to energy or damage to itself).
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It isn't as if you have to use a siphon vs an EAD.
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Not necessarily. But here you have the revamped EAD, which has the heaviest armor and heaviest firepower of all. Tell me that isn't a use-for-everything ship without a counter. 
So we're comparing all the three ADs. The EAD definitely has a big edge over the other 2.
The Mandi or Krill wouldn't last against an EAD in a knife fight.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-05-11 22:44
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On 2011-05-11 21:25, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
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On 2011-05-11 19:41, Talien wrote:
Might be just me, but I've found SI damage is too inconsistent to really give a Krill an average DPS, it can just vary too much from shot to shot. In the testing I did with it in beta I've had AI extractors frequently survive an alpha, whereas a Siphon or Mandible is pretty much guaranteed to kill them in 1 alpha. Even an AD will kill them with one alpha unless it's out of beam range and only firing torps/Ions.
Krill's advantage over the Siphon is range and energy efficiency. Compared to a Mandible it mostly comes up short, but can potentially do more damage if the SI get good rolls on the RNG.
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That's been the Krill all along. I never understood the QQ against it.
SIs are iffy. It has weak beams. Cannons are negligible.
The Krill has always been a fire support ship, and not a knife fighter. It's not really a threat unless you sit still and eat its SIs a few times.
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qq was because it has more firepower than a Line station, and long range to boot.
Crumples nicely if you try to make the audi logo with your armor rings and its.
Also the yin to the eads yang, is that its big, slow, with no guns in the back.
Kluth has never been able to stand toe to toe dread vs dread.
I do however hear your blight that ead does more damage than your super dread... But its always been that way. Nothing has changed.
EAD is > than icc AD... makes perfect sence to me. However, i think that the gap should not be SOOO huge from AD to EAD. I think the AD having its old defence thrown back on will equal it out nicely. EAD will still be better.
(old def = 5x active sheild generators. 4x armor)
What im seeing overall is a huge increase in damage across the board all factions, with a overall reduction of defence. (kluth missing double ahr / icc missing sheild generators) Battles are going to be alot more fast paced and intence. I just hope Small ships can keep up with the monster dreads.
Only huge battles are going to prove these new ship designs...
While im on the subject... The ICC Command dread is sevearly lacking in combat aspect. There has been talks of command type ships bolstering friendly fleets with a AOE type device. If ths is implemented, ICC will not be able to feild their command dread in an offencive posture. (though it will be able to set up defencive positions)
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance*XO* on 2011-05-11 23:00 ]
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MarineKingPrime
Marshal
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 04, 2010
Posts: 239
From: CSS CheezyBagels
| Posted: 2011-05-11 23:39
seriously? 8 SI??
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-11 23:53
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On 2011-05-11 22:44, Defiance*XO* wrote:
qq was because it has more firepower than a Line station, and long range to boot.
Crumples nicely if you try to make the audi logo with your armor rings and its.
Also the yin to the eads yang, is that its big, slow, with no guns in the back.
Kluth has never been able to stand toe to toe dread vs dread.
I do however hear your blight that ead does more damage than your super dread... But its always been that way. Nothing has changed.
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If a Krill has more firepower than a Line Station, what of the EAD and Siphon? 
The old 6 SIs plus 2 PSIs were good at medium range, but they were never dread or station killers. The real station killers were the Siphons who would get in under 250 gus and drill you with their alphas.
Like I said, 6 SIs (now 8 ) isn't much of a threat at med range as you can still dodge it (stations excepted). And those Krills aren't exactly the best ships in a knife fight. Further to the point, SIs have randomized damage, so not every shot results in massive damage.
It's an oddball for sure. But oddballs exist in every faction.
Back to the assault dreads. No, we do not expect the Siphon to outlast the EAD... or even the AD.... perhaps even the BD or CD in fact....
The job of the Siphon is to hull or heavily damage the enemy and then get out of there for the next ship to finish the job. Or it could be the one who'll finish off a smoking enemy.
Right now, the Siph and EAD is just about on par, except that the EAD has a massive advantage in terms of armor. TBH, I can live with the config if it goes live. But why not lobby for additional firepower since we're still on the case.
Think about what the EAD brings to the table. 15 FTs and a crapload of beams, plus near station-level armor and 15 gu/s. If the uggies field all EADS (and trust me they will), you're gonna have a hard time getting through because there is no real effective counter except to outnumber and gank them. And most of the time, you're the one getting ganked. 
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-05-11 23:53 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-05-12 00:06
It's very hard for a dread to dodge SI.
The new Krill has 8 SI and 8 heavy cannons, so it does bring good firepower to a fight. It's also easier to enhance, vs a Siphon where you have to choose beams or weapons, or split between the two.
With the beam and torp buff, the Siphon is the clear winner for alpha damage, but the Krill is no slouch either. The Krill is "safer" vs EADs too. If you use plasma cannons your damage from range is no different than up close save for the disruptors. You're not bringing the raw damage a Siphon or Mandible brings, but you're not sustaining as much either which can lead to overall greater DPS.
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MarineKingPrime
Marshal
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 04, 2010
Posts: 239
From: CSS CheezyBagels
| Posted: 2011-05-12 00:15
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| If a Krill has more firepower than a Line Station, what of the EAD and Siphon? |
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tell me when the EAD gets 8 QSTs and 8 heavy particle cannons.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-05-12 00:35
What im saying is, EAD can already 1 alpha kill anything smaller than cruiser... We dont need more powerful ships.. expecialy not ones you cannot see.
If anything, EAD needs a step back.. However, im contempt just the way it is.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-05-12 00:40
Fighters cost a lot of points for some reason. The command carrier is basically a HUGE engineer with more mining beams. It has fighters to launch while it orbits the random planet. The command dread can fight well, but it needs an outside miner to build, and the brood is a mix of the 2 I believe.
Also, EAD will be slowest to turn and can't focus on fore arcs as long as an AD. I'll agree on some siphon buffing, but if it can take down the EAD in a one on one without cloak, how will an EAD react to 3 decloaking on its rear?
I can't decide whether the AD armor change is a buff or nerf.
Pros of armor:
-More total hp
-Depo repairable
-Since you want fore anyways sheild redirection to fore is not a problem
-Slightly less energy consumption, might have been compensated for in new layout though
Cons:
-Less manueverable, but still most manueverable I think
-Can't redirect to other arcs
-Slightly less resistance to energy (armor is more durable than shields even with resistances I think, I'll have to test later)
-Can't defence mode (but an AD shouldn't have excess energy to defence mode in combat)
I'm curious, how does a mandi vs BD/CD work out?
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Azure Prower
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
| Posted: 2011-05-12 02:07
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On 2011-05-12 00:40, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
Also, EAD will be slowest to turn and can't focus on fore arcs as long as an AD. I'll agree on some siphon buffing, but if it can take down the EAD in a one on one without cloak, how will an EAD react to 3 decloaking on its rear?
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No one is expecting Siphon to win one on one against EAD every time.
But turn the situation around. 3 EADs point jumping one siphon. That's practically a death sentence from the sheer amount of burst damage from the EADs. Yet if there were 3 siphons on an EAD, it would have enough armor to tank the damage before jumping to a depot to where they will be combat ready once their cool down on their jump drive is ready to jump back.
[ This Message was edited by: Azure Prower on 2011-05-12 02:12 ]
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Sens [R33]
Admiral
Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
| Posted: 2011-05-12 02:15
Before yall get into heated debates, keep in mind there are new station layouts and fighters will be revamped to be "worth" the points they cost.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-05-12 02:21
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On 2011-05-12 02:07, Azure Prower wrote:
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On 2011-05-12 00:40, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
Also, EAD will be slowest to turn and can't focus on fore arcs as long as an AD. I'll agree on some siphon buffing, but if it can take down the EAD in a one on one without cloak, how will an EAD react to 3 decloaking on its rear?
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No one is expecting Siphon to win one on one against EAD every time.
But turn the situation around. 3 EADs point jumping one siphon. That's practically a death sentence from the sheer amount of burst damage from the EADs. Yet if there were 3 siphons on an EAD, it would have enough armor to tank the damage before jumping to a depot to where they will be combat ready once their cool down on their jump drive is ready to jump back.
[ This Message was edited by: Azure Prower on 2011-05-12 02:12 ]
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We can turn the situation around, but a Siphon should be cloaked when covering distances for the most part, point jumps would come from the siphon already engaging. (If you are point jumping a luth, chances are he is already engaging something or he wants you to jump him.
Also, the siphon can immediately hit cloak or jump, and depending on the skill of the enemy EADs' blind shooting, it can live. Also, the EAD may not always have access to depos contrary to popular belief.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-12 03:30
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On 2011-05-12 00:15, darksmaster923 (3IC) wrote:
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| If a Krill has more firepower than a Line Station, what of the EAD and Siphon? |
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tell me when the EAD gets 8 QSTs and 8 heavy particle cannons.
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The EAD has 4 QSTs and 15 torps, plus a whole crapload of beams.
It doesn't need the other 4 QST or those PCs......
But it'll be interesting to test a 3 vs 3. Siphons vs EAD in Beta.
Let's see what the results will be.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-05-12 04:15 ]
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Borgie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 2256
From: close by
| Posted: 2011-05-12 08:48
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On 2011-05-12 03:30, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
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On 2011-05-12 00:15, darksmaster923 (3IC) wrote:
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| If a Krill has more firepower than a Line Station, what of the EAD and Siphon? |
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tell me when the EAD gets 8 QSTs and 8 heavy particle cannons.
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The EAD has 4 QSTs and 15 torps, plus a whole crapload of beams.
It doesn't need the other 4 QST or those PCs......
But it'll be interesting to test a 3 vs 3. Siphons vs EAD in Beta.
Let's see what the results will be.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-05-12 04:15 ]
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in beta it would be a draw. but in real gaming the 3 EADs would win. only reason i say that is when you put on enhancements, which most monkeys now put on all defence makes those EAD with statation grade armor.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-05-12 10:15
EAD's alpha damage seems to be on par with a Siphon making it risky to engage them even with Cruisers, especially if there's more than one. It'd mostly come down to how well an EAD pilot can point jump.
1-2 alphas can kill a Combat Destroyer.
3-4 can kill a Heavy Cruiser. If it's from point blank 1 can just about hull it if it all hits the same arc, 2 can almost kill it if it all hits the same arc. Any other ICC Cruiser and yeah, it could very well die in 2.
If it's shooting at Kluth even Cruisers could potentially be a 1 alpha kill if it's close enough.
AD has less damage but a little better coverage.
3 alphas to kill a Gunboat on average
5 to kill a BC on average, 3 if it's point blank all hitting the same arc
All tests done vs AI, so assume standard armor for UGTO ships. Shield rotation wouldn't be much of a factor given that it burns through a full shield arc in less than one alpha.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2011-05-12 11:22
I can foreseen the
when is full of ICC complaint
Wait a minute. Well, it's just furious and exciting, not new.
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2011-05-12 11:28 ]
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