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[Beta] Dreadnaught layouts |
MarineKingPrime
Marshal
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 04, 2010
Posts: 239
From: CSS CheezyBagels
|  Posted: 2011-05-15 10:33
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CD wins over BD provided you stay above 400 gu, he will be forced to chase and you can pick his fore arc away while redirecting all shields. You both have jump drives so thats not an excuse. Speed enh helps. Also, CD rear only has 1 less cannon than BD and no cores, so it is still significant firepower considering enough speed will allow you to dodge and maintain range. CD is very energy efficient especially with only using rear arcs.
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The CD can only fight the BD. It doesn't have the firepower for anything else. EAD can just point jump it and tank enough railguns when the CD jumps away, and kluth can eat it alive, no questions about that. The combat dread can't tank any damage, period.
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AD is better at smacking small ships that can evade the fore arc, with 3 ion cannons to the sides and various beams and torps. |
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This makes the AD a horribad Assault dread, especially compared to the other super dreads. Seriously? Attacking small ships that evade the fore arc? Any retard going to your sides in a small ship is just asking to get killed. They would jump away.
Broadside weapon arcs on an Assault dread is useless. It's just a nerf that doesnt change the point value.
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I would suggest trying to trade broadsides in an AD |
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You can't possibly be serious.
The problem is is that most the other factions are superbly effective at what they do, ie. kluth do insane damage and can cloak, and ugto very offenseive. However, ICC is pretty terribad as a defensive faction. Hell, I wouldn't even mind the AD's considerably less firepower than the other Assault dreads if it could take some more damage.
In a capital ship fight, ICC shields are just too weak to be actually effective, negating the ICC's primary advantage as a defensive faction.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-05-15 11:11
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On 2011-05-15 06:42, BackSlash wrote:
SpaceAdmiral has the right idea.
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He has the right idea, but I'll say the Krill is the anti-EAD ship for Kluth, with the Ganglia coming in 2nd. SI does enough damage to get through reflective.
I'll be using both.
I also know what Shifcane is saying, but if you try to balance ship vs ship and not faction vs faction you wind up with ships that are all more or less the same, and that's no fun.
[ This Message was edited by: General Zod on 2011-05-15 11:16 ]
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Shifcane
Grand Admiral
Anarchy's End
Joined: July 12, 2005
Posts: 15
| Posted: 2011-05-15 11:42
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On 2011-05-15 11:11, General Zod wrote:
I also know what Shifcane is saying, but if you try to balance ship vs ship and not faction vs faction you wind up with ships that are all more or less the same, and that's no fun.
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Its not that they have to be the same, they have to be comparable, Human Factions have close to the same layouts, just different defences to off set the damage/defenses difference. As for the Luth, they should have ships of the same classes that are comparable. All the factions ships have their use, they have their ups and downs. To be a "Super Dread" or an Assult type dread it needs to be able to hold its own through out the fight. Then let Skill of the pilot take it form there.
I dont want to use the EAD and AD as an example as it is the main focus of everyone.
Back a few pages it says the CD and the BD are good against eachother, if the BD gets closer then 400gu it will own the CD. Well that is UGTO benefit there weapons are stronger before falloff damage. But the CD benefit of stronger shields "should" help off set that. ICC weapons if I remember dont have falloff "Cannons" so despite the range they will do the same amount of damage.
Now back to the Super Dreads, This is not or does not apear to be the case.
[ This Message was edited by: Shifcane on 2011-05-15 11:43 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-05-15 11:50
I don't think shields or defense are the focus of ICC anymore. It' increasingly apparent that ICC are becoming a long-range broadside faction and not a defensive faction.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-05-15 12:32
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On 2011-05-15 07:08, Pegasus wrote:
Noticed this morning that the core weapons on the ICC have upto 1/2 to 3/4 seconds delay once you press the keyboard key to fire. The Krill and EAD are almost instant. Thus leaving the ICC at a disadvantage. Was able to reproduce on two accounts, and no its not my computer.
Unless there is a reason for ICC to have such a large fire delay?
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I'm noticing this too, it's not just an occasional thing either, it happened each time I fired Ions.
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On 2011-05-15 02:12, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
CD wins over BD provided you stay above 400 gu, he will be forced to chase and you can pick his fore arc away while redirecting all shields. You both have jump drives so thats not an excuse. Speed enh helps. Also, CD rear only has 1 less cannon than BD and no cores, so it is still significant firepower considering enough speed will allow you to dodge and maintain range. CD is very energy efficient especially with only using rear arcs.
AD is better at smacking small ships that can evade the fore arc, with 3 ion cannons to the sides and various beams and torps.
The reason why the EAD seems overpowered is because of its almost pure fore concentration + armor. The fore concentration makes it have Kluth like firepower with armor to withstand damage, unlike kluth. So a straight fore to fore battle at close range leaves the EAD the victor.
I would suggest trying to trade broadsides in an AD, not sure if orbiting him or him turning will be quicker, though speed enh can help. Possible drawback will be not enough energy gen from moving at higher speeds.
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Sure speed enh can be used, but the other guy can also use them so that's not really a solution. The only way you can consistently broadside with any ship while keeping range is if you're attacking something that's 1 or 2 sizes larger like a Cruiser or Destroyer vs a Dreadnought or Station, otherwise the range gets closed while you turn to use that broadside arc. Trying to run while firing aft guns when it comes to CD vs. BD.....well, you aren't going to be dodging anything while running if you want to keep range, that's for sure, and yeah you can slowly pick off the frontal armor but your shields and aft armor will be gone before the other guy's frontal (especially if it's ablative) due to taking hits from QST in addition to cannons. An EAD would be just as bad since you'd be getting hit by torps and QST. Yes, the torps would be hitting, no EAD pilot in their right mind would chase another ship if they were out of torp range.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-05-15 12:33
long range faction... is hardly excuse to make us the softest hitting then.
as long range is only viable for the opening shots of a battle...
again for all you hardheads, im speaking only to dread on dread combat.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2011-05-15 12:55
You hit for less, but it's not a considerable amount less. Your shields also have roughly more than 90% of the hp armour has. Couple that in with a recharge rate that is considerably higher than armour, and the fact you can rotate your shields to have an extra 270% hp on one facing, and you have quite the advantage defence-wise.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-05-15 13:47
Shields can't be swapped to a version with resistance to kinetic or another version with resistance to energy.
More tests.
AD with defense mode vs EAD with standard armor, 500 GU range, actual combat scenario.
Results: AD won, 4% hull left after explosion damage.
With standard armor an AD can just barely come out ahead.
AD with defense mode vs EAD with reflective armor, 100 GU range, no moving.
Results: EAD won, 16% hull left after the explosion damage.
AD with defense mode vs EAD with ablative armor, 100 GU range, no moving.
Results: EAD won again, 17% hull left after explosion damage.
EAD burned through 1 arc of composite armor+the initial 400% shields+whatever was gained through defense mode on all 4 arcs being redirected to the front+100% hull before an AD was able to burn through 1 arc of either special armor+hull.
Will be back later with results from similar tests with BD vs CD.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2011-05-15 13:49 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-05-15 13:50
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On 2011-05-15 13:47, Talien wrote:
Shields can't be swapped to a version with resistance to kinetic or another version with resistance to energy.
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Well that's a problem I and a few others have had for a long time now. I prefer the old system of light armor with more maneuverability or heavy armor with less.
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Ants
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 315
From: Canada
| Posted: 2011-05-15 14:06
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On 2011-05-15 12:55, BackSlash wrote:
You hit for less, but it's not a considerable amount less. Your shields also have roughly more than 90% of the hp armour has. Couple that in with a recharge rate that is considerably higher than armour, and the fact you can rotate your shields to have an extra 270% hp on one facing, and you have quite the advantage defence-wise.
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Just to recap this a bit,
ICC Cannons and torps hit weaker than UGTO and Luth, ICC also has the least amount of weapons on board there ships. So ICC is out gunned and out DPS'ed. Shields seem to melt upon impact of any energy weapon. and that said projectile.
UGTO has stronger weapons cannons and torps. They also have stronger armour that can have specific resistances.
Kluth have the strongest of the all weapons but limited to the use of them due to power and armour. Cloak and Dagger. But If luth cloak after the Dagger "they will be hulled already" they will be killed by ping as they run to repair for the next pass.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2011-05-15 14:28
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On 2011-05-15 14:06, Fatal Ants (XO) wrote:
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On 2011-05-15 12:55, BackSlash wrote:
You hit for less, but it's not a considerable amount less. Your shields also have roughly more than 90% of the hp armour has. Couple that in with a recharge rate that is considerably higher than armour, and the fact you can rotate your shields to have an extra 270% hp on one facing, and you have quite the advantage defence-wise.
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Just to recap this a bit,
ICC Cannons and torps hit weaker than UGTO and Luth, ICC also has the least amount of weapons on board there ships. So ICC is out gunned and out DPS'ed. Shields seem to melt upon impact of any energy weapon. and that said projectile.
UGTO has stronger weapons cannons and torps. They also have stronger armour that can have specific resistances.
Kluth have the strongest of the all weapons but limited to the use of them due to power and armour. Cloak and Dagger. But If luth cloak after the Dagger "they will be hulled already" they will be killed by ping as they run to repair for the next pass.
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Just to recap this bit,
ICC do less damage up to about 150-200 gu, at which point all their weapons do more damage.
That UGTO stronger armour has less hitpoints than shields when you replace them.
You were fighting a ship which had more emphasis on beams than most ships, at a range wherein it was doing more damage.
All you're doing is showing us that you gave one ship an advantage, and that ship came out ahead.
As was stated above, in the real combat scenario, the AD came out ahead. We aren't in the practice of taking results from scenario's that have no bearing on the game.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-05-15 14:34
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On 2011-05-15 13:47, Talien wrote:
Shields can't be swapped to a version with resistance to kinetic or another version with resistance to energy.
More tests.
AD with defense mode vs EAD with standard armor, 500 GU range, actual combat scenario.
Results: AD won, 4% hull left after explosion damage.
With standard armor an AD can just barely come out ahead.
AD with defense mode vs EAD with reflective armor, 100 GU range, no moving.
Results: EAD won, 16% hull left after the explosion damage.
AD with defense mode vs EAD with ablative armor, 100 GU range, no moving.
Results: EAD won again, 17% hull left after explosion damage.
EAD burned through 1 arc of composite armor+the initial 400% shields+whatever was gained through defense mode on all 4 arcs being redirected to the front+100% hull before an AD was able to burn through 1 arc of either special armor+hull.
Will be back later with results from similar tests with BD vs CD.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2011-05-15 13:49 ]
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You have to test them now in a combat situation, probably turning and circling each other, otherwise all you're doing is testing alpha strike damage. That's good to get a feel for what kind of damage a ship can do, but it doesn't really show it's combat effectiveness.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-05-15 14:47
[quote]
On 2011-05-15 14:28, BackSlash wrote:
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As was stated above, in the real combat scenario, the AD came out ahead. We aren't in the practice of taking results from scenario's that have no bearing on the game.
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yet you told me and several others true combat tests are not a viable means to test in beta.... lol
seems to me that you only admit data that supports your pov. Easy to make statistics say what you want.
please enlighten us, on a true method of testing in beta rather or not our dreads can be still considered true to the defencive faction status quota.
**purly fictitional numbers**
If a ugto dread has 500,000 points of defence, and can deal out 250,000 points of offence per alpha, and a ICC dread can take 600,000 points of damage, but can only deal out 100,000 points per alpha, The illusion of UGTO being the defencive faction is born. I believe we have somethign very close to this happening right now.
regardless of rather its an illusion or not, the results are viable.
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance*XO* on 2011-05-15 14:57 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-05-15 14:51
The first test was an actual combat scenario, AD using defense mode just barely won vs. an EAD using standard armor.
Granted neither Jim nor I are stellar Dreadnought pilots (this being the 4th time I've flown one in actual combat, counting the 3 tests I participated in yesterday), so if any pros want to repeat the test for possibly more accurate results, please do.
EDIT: Ok, I just want to be absolutely clear on this incase anyone is getting the wrong idea. The ONLY thing I'm doing is testing and reporting results on things I personally see as inconsistent, unbalanced, or in some cases even flawed. All the staff members I've talked to or helped test things I've thought were pretty cool and I have no issues with any of them personally.
If it seems like I'm coming across as an a-hole while pointing things out it's probably because in person I often am one, I call things as I see them and very rarely sugarcoat anything.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2011-05-15 15:00 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-05-15 17:28
@Shifcane
1. The EAD will never be able to focus its fore arc on a small ship unless the small ship makes a huge mistake. The armor that makes it so "defensive" also weighs it down.
2. Yes there will be favorite ships soley because they match the faction's philosophy. For example, Battle Stations are currently too good at being the slugger, and this will proly change with the new layouts. The new EAD's fore concentration plus armor allows it to win a close range fore to fore fight because both factions' ships are currently using a slugger play style. In order to make ship classes match each other we will need extensive balance changes that ensure both faction vs faction and class vs class are equal, which will most likely take a lot of effort and will also make all factions near the same. It's because there are faction philosophies that there are different class vs class balances. This also supports tactical play, it won't be "He has an EAD, lemme match that with an AD of my own! Oh wait there's also a BD, can someone pull a CD out? We have superior numbers, we should win if we match classes."
3. In the battle of super dreads, there are ways you can pilot them to defeat other super dreads, like how the BD vs CD is done. The weapon layouts are different, but the main concepts are the same, use your ship's strength, avoid him exploiting you weakness.
@darkmaster
1. CD can take on the EAD. There's a secret, very special tactic closely guarded by a select few. I'ma share it with you, keep this very secret and don't tell others. Dictor Cruiser. Unfortunatly kluth can cloak and get close however.
2. In release, what's the biggest fear of 1-3 EADs? A dictor and a heavy cruiser. The same should be said for the AD, but Ions travel very, very fast and pcannons do very little damage at range, and any damage is negated by shield rotation. The other tactic vs a lone AD is to try to outmaneuver, and the new layout will put a big "DENIED" stamp on any small ship and/or BD orbiting to the sides of an AD. In turn it is weaker vs other assault dreads when used in a slugger fashion.
3. I am totally cereal on trading broadsides with an AD vs EAD. EAD has horribad side arcs, the AD even has 2 more cores. No offense, but by not even trying to trade broadsides you basically negated the advantage the AD has over the EAD. It may not work without speed, it is a possible tactic.
@Zod
The Krill does seem fit to kill EADs, 8 heavy cannons all kinetic must hurt vs reflective. I said ganglia because at range you negate almost all damage, and if you are low on energy you should have enough range to cloak and slow down without him being able to blind fire you.
@Talien
1. Yes, Ion Cannons do seem to have a delay, maybe an unknown side effect of the wait between the 1st and 2nd shot applying to the 1st shot? Dunno the cause. :\
2. How many BDs and EADs are out there with full makkars/speed? I can safely bet not 1 in release, unless someone does it while they read this post. The extra speed (trust me, the BD/EAD will not be full speed) allows you to dodge the QSTs and/or cannons. You dont really need to dodge the cannons though, as at their max range they do pitiful damage. Your rear arc can also be reinforced with shields in case of a misclick or 2 causing some QSTs to hit. The EAD won't give chase, allowing you to chase him at max range and pelt him with both cannons and Ion cannons. For the EAD its run or die.
@Defiance
All my suggested strategies involve exploiting range for the entire combat length.
@Fatal Ants
1. Recap: ICC cannons superior to UGTO above around 400 gu.
2. If kluth is majorly hulled he should do what other factions do: Jump Out. Faster JD also helps him get back to combat if he jumped to Depo.
@Talien
While I may argue vs some people, I never take anything personally unless they actually insult me. (IE some person who said I was mental and should take my medicine) So while we may be arguing, I feel no negative feelings, we are just expressing our points of view.
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