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[Beta] Dreadnaught layouts |
SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
|  Posted: 2011-05-11 05:44
The thing with elf beams is that if it becomes a major sustainable source of energy (think 2 elf beams=1 aux gen), then you not only generate a great deal of energy, you deny the enemy of their energy.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-11 06:16
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On 2011-05-11 05:44, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
The thing with elf beams is that if it becomes a major sustainable source of energy (think 2 elf beams=1 aux gen), then you not only generate a great deal of energy, you deny the enemy of their energy.
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You miss the point. The Siphon will not last in combat long enough to need those ELFs. You need to fly them more often against Uggies to know where I'm coming from.
I rather have more DPS than ELFs.
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GalaxyFalinzin
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 06, 2008
Posts: 28
From: On a boat... somewhere.
| Posted: 2011-05-11 08:31
Which is why the full beam siphon was so great! Hulled everything with 1 full volley.
[ This Message was edited by: GalaxyFalinzin on 2011-05-11 08:32 ]
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-05-11 10:55
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On 2011-05-11 06:16, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
You miss the point. The Siphon will not last in combat long enough to need those ELFs. You need to fly them more often against Uggies to know where I'm coming from.
I rather have more DPS than ELFs.
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See, this is why I asked if you guys would prefer 12 torps and 4 ELFs rather than 8 torps and 6 ELFs, but nobody answered me. 
[ This Message was edited by: Jim Starluck on 2011-05-11 10:56 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-11 11:03
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On 2011-05-11 10:55, Jim Starluck wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 06:16, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
You miss the point. The Siphon will not last in combat long enough to need those ELFs. You need to fly them more often against Uggies to know where I'm coming from.
I rather have more DPS than ELFs.
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See, this is why I asked if you guys would prefer 12 torps and 4 ELFs rather than 8 torps and 6 ELFs, but nobody answered me.
[ This Message was edited by: Jim Starluck on 2011-05-11 10:56 ]
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But Jim, I did ask whether the Mandi did more damage than the Siphon per alpha strike.
Also, does the EAD do more damage than the Siph?
We need some data to make the needed suggestions.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-05-11 11:15
I haven't done any raw damage comparisons for any of the ships so far. I suppose I could look into it.
But I'm curious; has anyone actually used the Siphon in a real fight so far? Or has it all just been looking over the layout and speculating on how it'll perform?
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If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger space battleship and try again.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-05-11 11:45
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 10:55, Jim Starluck wrote:
See, this is why I asked if you guys would prefer 12 torps and 4 ELFs rather than 8 torps and 6 ELFs, but nobody answered me. |
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Some of us preferred the Siphon as a beam dread, so it's pointless to answer. I was actually going to use one and already had enhancements planned.
Do ELF beams actually steal enough to make a difference in the enemy's energy? There was a time very long ago when they did, but I seriously doubt that ELF beams will significantly drain a human dread now. Siphons (and all Kluth ships) cannot stick around constantly firing, so ELF beams need to steal an awful lot to make them worth it.
Reconsider these changes. Make the Siphon a beam ship again, like the Parasite.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2011-05-11 11:46
I performed a test between UGTO command dread and Krill in beta. I was in CD with 8 AW condenser, and [PB]Tommas in Krill. So far, it proved that Krill was OP, I was killed when Krill at 50% hull. But the result is not trustworthy. I have a slow computer, I couldn't tell whether my mines hit [PB]Tommas because it seemed like I was in a bad frame rate drop.
I hear that Krill needs an idea. Here is mine:
- 5 mines.
- 1 SI.
- 4 assualt fighters.
- Some Heavy Plasma Cannon.
- 1 ECM.
- 1 aux.
- No AD.
- 6 ruptors.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-05-11 12:04
Enhancements skew tests, it's best to run them with stock ships since we're trying to see whether the ships themselves are balanced or not. We already know enhancements can radically overpower a ship in one way or another so it's pointless to use them in beta unless you're just trying to see what enh you'd want to use in release.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-05-11 12:25
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On 2011-05-11 11:45, General Zod wrote:
Some of us preferred the Siphon as a beam dread, so it's pointless to answer. I was actually going to use one and already had enhancements planned.
Do ELF beams actually steal enough to make a difference in the enemy's energy? There was a time very long ago when they did, but I seriously doubt that ELF beams will significantly drain a human dread now. Siphons (and all Kluth ships) cannot stick around constantly firing, so ELF beams need to steal an awful lot to make them worth it.
Reconsider these changes. Make the Siphon a beam ship again, like the Parasite.
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At the moment, the only change in the Siphon's beam firepower from the earlier version is the loss of two regular Disruptors. It still has all 8 Assault Disruptors, which constitute the bulk of its firepower. Most of the space for other weapons came from the fact that it was accidentally underbuilt in the first place--missing a few gadgets it was supposed to have. It should be a lot stronger now.
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If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger space battleship and try again.
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GalaxyFalinzin
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 06, 2008
Posts: 28
From: On a boat... somewhere.
| Posted: 2011-05-11 13:16
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 12:25, Jim Starluck wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 11:45, General Zod wrote:
Some of us preferred the Siphon as a beam dread, so it's pointless to answer. I was actually going to use one and already had enhancements planned.
Do ELF beams actually steal enough to make a difference in the enemy's energy? There was a time very long ago when they did, but I seriously doubt that ELF beams will significantly drain a human dread now. Siphons (and all Kluth ships) cannot stick around constantly firing, so ELF beams need to steal an awful lot to make them worth it.
Reconsider these changes. Make the Siphon a beam ship again, like the Parasite.
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At the moment, the only change in the Siphon's beam firepower from the earlier version is the loss of two regular Disruptors. It still has all 8 Assault Disruptors, which constitute the bulk of its firepower. Most of the space for other weapons came from the fact that it was accidentally underbuilt in the first place--missing a few gadgets it was supposed to have. It should be a lot stronger now.
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Yeah... but it just doesn't have the style of an all beam siphon!
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-05-11 13:23
Well if it was underbuilt, then why not add more beams and ELF? Differetiate it from the Mandible enough so that the choice between the two is a tactical choice, not a strength choice.
I was testing them vs ai since I was the only one in beta at the time. It was an annoying process too: queue a ship, spawn extractor, mine a while, queue another ship, mine a while, etc. etc. I found that missiles are a lot more accurate now (MUCH needed change!) and that the Siphon as a beam ship was quite useful.
Like I said, I like the idea of the Siphon and Parasite being different sizes of the same basic layout, unlike the current live (and new beta) Siphon that's only slightly different than the Mandible. People who have access to Siphon I don't think use the Mandible anymore, and that should not be.
Imagine if the BD and EAD, or CD and AD, had similar layouts but one was simply superior with higher requirements? I'm not saying Kluth ships have to match human versatility (Kluth do have the Krill after all), but you had a good thing going with the Siphon design philosophy of mostly beams.
[ This Message was edited by: General Zod on 2011-05-11 13:30 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-11 15:11
It has 2 SIs and a few torps now.
And yeah Jim, I'd favor less ELFs and more torps!
DPS FTW
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-05-11 15:26
how about making all ships in beta cost 1 res to spawn?
should be easy enuff to implement, and change befor release.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-05-11 15:48
So it seems you guys want more damage no matter what, and are willing to exchange ELF beams for them. I'm hesitant about adding more Assault Disruptors, though--it's already got eight of the darn things; two more and it'll have as many as a battle station, all of them focused on a single arc.
I went ahead and checked the alpha strike damage, by the way. With a single spacebar the Siphon can inflict nearly 318,000 damage on average, assuming all of its weapons hit. The Mandible can manage just over 252,000, while the EAD can get up to 291,000--but that's assuming it's at about mid-range. Due to the falloff from chemical lasers it can do a LOT more damage the closer it gets. If you could get to 0 range for every beam the EAD could hit for more than 430,000. That's enough to one-shot anything smaller than a Cruiser.
Nearly two-thirds of the Siphon's damage comes from it's Assault Disruptors, so adding more of them would increase it dramatically, which I'm not sure I want to do. I've also been keeping to a policy of having as few regular beams on the heavy combat Dreads as I can manage, to keep their point-defense capability under control--which rules out regular Disruptors. Replacing two of the ELFs with 4 torps would kick its alpha-strike up to 347,000, but that gives it as many torps as the Mandible, which I'm also iffy on.
So I've got a bit of a dilemma here.
[ This Message was edited by: Jim Starluck on 2011-05-11 15:54 ]
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